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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: spells/abilities   Wed Jan 21 2009, 16:33

I wanted to point out few things that should/need to be improved:

*Barbarians Rage- going barbarian is pretty useless with a rage that ends after temporary Hit Points end, because not only you loose all the bonuses, but also you are unable to cast another rage after you loose these Temp HPs and you just have to wait about 5mins before you are able to cast another rage.(in high dungeons rage would end after 2-3hits)

*shadowdancer's "Shadow Evade" lasts only 2 rounds, (i believe you have said Shadowdaner /w Blachguard has been improved) but obviously not... SD does not get any new summon after Vile King like BG does... and Shadow Evade is useless with 2round...

*i am still against chunk of meteorite working on other players... because all melee characters already have too much adventage over casters (all these SR items and items with buffs).. but if not make an item that would make casters immune to chunk of meteorite.

*Dexterity Based Chars have no adventage over Str based chars, because any str based char can have as much AC as a good Dex based char... and i always thought dexters should have more AC over Str based chars... they have to pay with AB and Dmg loss for that extra AC...

*it feels like everything is made so that all STR and also MELEE chars have huge adventage over others.... which makes players not play other classes much.. so i would suggest dropping AC on shields and armors to +10 instead of +15 or make something that would benefit playing other than str based melee chars

*another thing would be that not only Templars get to enter hell for free but also they are capable of soloing it and even if it would take time getting legendary items from hell... while any others have very big trouble and it should be left like that... which makes players make templars and farm hell to get these legendary items.... (it wasnt like this back when i was playing coz everyone had problems with hell)

*there's lots of other things against str based melees that DM is aware off but he wants them to have all the adventages over all other classes... thats how i feel about it
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Nuli



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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Wed Jan 21 2009, 20:27

GPharaoh wrote:
I wanted to point out few things that should/need to be improved:

*Barbarians Rage- going barbarian is pretty useless with a rage that ends after temporary Hit Points end, because not only you loose all the bonuses, but also you are unable to cast another rage after you loose these Temp HPs and you just have to wait about 5mins before you are able to cast another rage.(in high dungeons rage would end after 2-3hits)

I agree..barbarians still need tweaked..rage benefit is nice but once it wears off, you're screwed.

*shadowdancer's "Shadow Evade" lasts only 2 rounds, (i believe you have said Shadowdaner /w Blachguard has been improved) but obviously not... SD does not get any new summon after Vile King like BG does... and Shadow Evade is useless with 2round...

My SD has the same problem..doesn't last long enough. Perhaps increasing the duration based on your SD levels would be good so people cant just take a few SD levels and get a fairly good ability.

*i am still against chunk of meteorite working on other players... because all melee characters already have too much adventage over casters (all these SR items and items with buffs).. but if not make an item that would make casters immune to chunk of meteorite.

I disagree. Meteors are fairly rare and they are the one thing that can turn the tide in favor of a melee character over a caster..particularly casters who get all fightery and wear sets (i know one who wears the rusty set) that are not meant really for casters, which when combined with their fairly awesome bonuses from their staff more then compensate for being dispelled. If a caster gets debuffed they can always just osha away.

*Dexterity Based Chars have no adventage over Str based chars, because any str based char can have as much AC as a good Dex based char... and i always thought dexters should have more AC over Str based chars... they have to pay with AB and Dmg loss for that extra AC...

Dex based characters do not lose any ab over str based ones. Almost every dexer I know takes weapon finesse (dex for ab instead of str) and weilds a light weapon. Thus they have an equivalant ab. The damage output is roughly the same (1d6 for a shorty or hand axe vs 1d8 for a longsword say) and with the new weapon systems, I'd say damage is pretty even for most weapons.

*it feels like everything is made so that all STR and also MELEE chars have huge adventage over others.... which makes players not play other classes much.. so i would suggest dropping AC on shields and armors to +10 instead of +15 or make something that would benefit playing other than str based melee chars

I don't think that the ac should be dropped to penalize Str based characters. A fighter wearing the set of might has roughly a 75 ac and a dexer can get pretty much that in other items. It works out so they are about even in terms of ac. The problems for dexers mainly comes down to that there isn't quite as nice a selection of items for them.


*another thing would be that not only Templars get to enter hell for free but also they are capable of soloing it and even if it would take time getting legendary items from hell... while any others have very big trouble and it should be left like that... which makes players make templars and farm hell to get these legendary items.... (it wasnt like this back when i was playing coz everyone had problems with hell)

I think Sarah wanted Hell to fairly challenging for soloing though only Sarah can speak about that.

*there's lots of other things against str based melees that DM is aware off but he wants them to have all the adventages over all other classes... thats how i feel about it

Not sure if thats necessarily true. Right now they seem stronger because they have better items but I have a variety of characters that are decent up through d14 and would be fine after that if they had some better legendary sets other then pally or rusty. I know Sarah has been pretty busy so Im sure once things have settled down for him, he can look at adding some stuff or incorporating peoples ideas.

Just my two cents.

Nuli

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Wed Jan 21 2009, 20:57

dex based characters loose ab in the way that they get less ab with lvls(ex. Fighter, Pally gets more ab than assassin or rogue)...but in exchange they have higher AC...
They also deal less Physical dmg(blunt, slashing, piercing) because as we all know str modifier gives higher dmg.
You also have to remember that dex based character is useless without uncanny dodge... thats because if he's caught flatfooted than that AC drops...
Definition of it in case some of you dont know what it is: Flat-Footed-A character or creature that is caught unawares or otherwise unprepared is considered to be flat-footed. A flat-footed character loses his dexterity and dodge bonuses to armor class and cannot make attacks of opportunity. Also if a character is caught flatfooted, he ALWAYS loose Dodge bonus AC and AC gained from ranks in the Tumble.
So there's already a lot of penalties playing dexter and we shouldnt make it easy for str based chars.
Game itself doesnt allow you to take expertise and improved expertise for nothing... its so that str based chars can also gain more AC paying with AB loss. (If i am not mistaken its the same when you heal)
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Nuli



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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 01:33

All non fighters get less attacks (and hence less base attack bonus (bab)) as they level up. That is not a penalty for being dex based, it is a penalty for not being a fighter. Those characters also make up for having less bab by getting some pretty seriously damaging attacks (e.g. sneak attack, death attack). Consider this:

Level 20 fighter using longsword+4 and has strength buffed to 34 does 1d8 (longsword)+2 (weapon specialization)+4 (enhancement)+12 (strength) = 1d8+18 = avg 22.5 damage

Level 20 rogue using a shortsword+4 and has strength buffed to 20 does 1d6(shortsword)+4 (enhancement)+5 (strength) = 1d6+9 = avg 12.5 damage; however this rogue can also potentially add 10d6 sneak attack for an additional 33.5 damage. Getting sneak attacks off isn't that hard, particularly at low levels where the rogue will far outdamage a fighter.

As things become immune to sneaks it does get tougher for a rogue, but I don't see that as a problem. Adding elemental damage to weapons will typically bridge the gap for damage so that even without sneak attacks a rogue will never be that far behind a fighter for damage as the levels where sneak attacks become irrelevant so too typically does most physical damage which is what the strength bonus is contributing anyway.

Also, consider a dex based fighter. At level 20 a dex based halfling fighter and strength based half orc fighter would have exactly the same bab (+20) and modifiers to hit (halfling 20 base dex at level 1, all stat increases to dex at level 20 = 25 dex +12 from items and potions = 37 dex or +13 for ab of +33..the same half orc fighter would have str 20 at lvl 1 +5 for stat increases and +12 from items/potions for the same +33 ab).

About being flat footed...at worst you can be flat footed for one round if you are surprised in combat. The other effects that render you flat footed like Bigby's Grasping Hand and such have the same penalty for strength fighters as dexers..at worst the armored fighter does a little better because his armor bonus from say plate+3 (+11 armor bonus) is better then what a dex based character could be using a +3 adventurers robe (+3 armor bonus) but in my opinion such is life for a dex based character. The same penalties apply to armored fighters in regards to any tumble/dodge bonuses they have to armor class as they do to the dex based classes.

Again, I think what it comes down to is not that strength based fighters are better then dex based, only that as it stands, there are better items for the more traditional fighter..i.e. the strength fighter. I have had no problem using rogues, assassins, shadow dancers, etc until only the highest levels and again, only because the items are better that currently exist for str based melee.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 03:06

Nuli wrote:
All non fighters get less attacks (and hence less base attack bonus (bab)) as they level up. That is not a penalty for being dex based, it is a penalty for not being a fighter. Those characters also make up for having less bab by getting some pretty seriously damaging attacks (e.g. sneak attack, death attack). Consider this:

Level 20 fighter using longsword+4 and has strength buffed to 34 does 1d8 (longsword)+2 (weapon specialization)+4 (enhancement)+12 (strength) = 1d8+18 = avg 22.5 damage

Level 20 rogue using a shortsword+4 and has strength buffed to 20 does 1d6(shortsword)+4 (enhancement)+5 (strength) = 1d6+9 = avg 12.5 damage; however this rogue can also potentially add 10d6 sneak attack for an additional 33.5 damage. Getting sneak attacks off isn't that hard, particularly at low levels where the rogue will far outdamage a fighter.

As things become immune to sneaks it does get tougher for a rogue, but I don't see that as a problem. Adding elemental damage to weapons will typically bridge the gap for damage so that even without sneak attacks a rogue will never be that far behind a fighter for damage as the levels where sneak attacks become irrelevant so too typically does most physical damage which is what the strength bonus is contributing anyway.

consider that to make sneak attack you would have to first knockdown your opponent or have someone with you so monsters attack him, what if dex based char doesnt have sneak attacks??

Also, consider a dex based fighter. At level 20 a dex based halfling fighter and strength based half orc fighter would have exactly the same bab (+20) and modifiers to hit (halfling 20 base dex at level 1, all stat increases to dex at level 20 = 25 dex +12 from items and potions = 37 dex or +13 for ab of +33..the same half orc fighter would have str 20 at lvl 1 +5 for stat increases and +12 from items/potions for the same +33 ab).

yes but than if cought flatfooted he's useless as he has neither uncanny dodge nor defensive awareness

About being flat footed...at worst you can be flat footed for one round if you are surprised in combat. The other effects that render you flat footed like Bigby's Grasping Hand and such have the same penalty for strength fighters as dexers..at worst the armored fighter does a little better because his armor bonus from say plate+3 (+11 armor bonus) is better then what a dex based character could be using a +3 adventurers robe (+3 armor bonus) but in my opinion such is life for a dex based character. The same penalties apply to armored fighters in regards to any tumble/dodge bonuses they have to armor class as they do to the dex based classes.

you're wrong because all that anyone without uncanny dodge or defensive awareness would loose is just Tumble and Dodge AC bonuses and if dexter is caught in bigby's or time stop or paralyzed or stunned or even petrified he looses all dexterity bonus to AC plus that AC from tumble and Dodge AC.

Again, I think what it comes down to is not that strength based fighters are better then dex based, only that as it stands, there are better items for the more traditional fighter..i.e. the strength fighter. I have had no problem using rogues, assassins, shadow dancers, etc until only the highest levels and again, only because the items are better that currently exist for str based melee.

you are also flat-footed when performing a non-combat task.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 06:29

I gotta agree with GPharoah on this one, dexers are seriously discriminated against. You make the trade off for more AC against less damage, but the module tries to balance the greater AC without making up the shortfall in damage. Just look at the AC bonus for all armour types, there are plenty of +10 or more pieces in light, medium or heavy armour but bugger all for cloth. In fact the only one I can think of that hits double figures is the Archers Jerkin, which is legendary and only usable by an Arcane Archer. So the increase AC you get for going dex is offset by other player types getting better kit. Other advantages you can get are covered by equipment too,

Imp. evasion - lots of items provide this with no pre-requisites covered.
Self concealment - Imp. invisibilty is widely available for most of the game.

So the only real benefit you can gain is epic dodge. It is a great feat, but as your lack of damage and lower AC mean you are going to be a fight for longer it doesn't really count for much.

Maybe a new weapon improvement is needed to give dexers greater damage, possibly stack gem damage on a weapon, but then that weapon is only usable with a dex greater than 30.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 06:58

I'll give it some thought. There is a reason why the cloth AC is limited. It's to keep the maximum achievable ACs within realistic levels for all characters. If I allow a certain build to get a substantially higher AC than other builds, that one build will then rule. I've seen it happen many times. A player figures out how to get an AC so high they can't be hit. It doesn't matter if their characters is deficient in almost every other aspect, so long as they can avoid being hit. They then tank for other players, making a basically unbeatable team.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 15:23

Sarah the DM wrote:
I'll give it some thought. There is a reason why the cloth AC is limited. It's to keep the maximum achievable ACs within realistic levels for all characters. If I allow a certain build to get a substantially higher AC than other builds, that one build will then rule. I've seen it happen many times. A player figures out how to get an AC so high they can't be hit. It doesn't matter if their characters is deficient in almost every other aspect, so long as they can avoid being hit. They then tank for other players, making a basically unbeatable team.

That's what would probably happened, but right now i know one thing... a templar pally with pally set has 93ac(5 AC from angel buff) Divine shield- 8(10cha modifier) while my Fallen Angel which is dex based also gets 93AC where angel buff gives me 13AC... so now tell me whats the benefit making dex based char if a str based char can get that much ac easily...

Also i dont like that players use templars to farm Hell in order to get legendary items.... and please keep your stupid posts away saying that "yes we farm with templars but its hard getting any drops"... Well there's some truth in that but answer me honestly.... how many players had hell legendary items before there were Templars?? Templars can go to Hell for no cost... its way way way easier to farm hell and even if you get lower loot rate its still benefiting players to do so since they dont have to worry about getting emeralds, and if they die they can get back in not wasting gems... therefore you dont spent any more time getting items like if you played non templar... thats the only reason there's so many templars because players use them for their own benefit.
If you dont agree with me let me add one more thing... when Dziki, my brother had a templar and we were farming hell it was 100x easier to do hell and we were getting items much quicker even tho templar has loot penalty... he got himself 2nd rusty set when farming hell with templar and other legendarys... while before we had to work hard to get our legendarys using non templar

Therefore templars should get no loots... lets say any loot they find changes to gold or whatever so no farming with templars... DM said himself when created templars that they are to prevent evil or something like that... not everyone making templars to use it for their own benefit because they want legendary items easier way... there's probably more that i dont quite remember right now... and anyone playing templar will deny it
The players that got items before templars came in would approve this since they know how hard it was... (me, dziki, Josh, Zog) these are players that have successfully farmed hell
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Jan 22 2009, 23:16

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Fri Jan 23 2009, 06:06

I'm open to any ideas to help dex-based characters become more competitive, but I can't have characters walking around that are nearly impossible to hit. When I started KT, I was concerned about monks gaining 100+ AC bonuses from cloth with the same plus as armor, dexterity bonuses, and their monk AC bonus. I could possibly create some better cloth items, but they would have to be class limited to prevent monks from being untouchable.

Also, the magic user damage immunity limitations are intentional. They are supposed to rely on spells more than items. As for damage per spell, I strongly recommend using the spell boosters. I also intended to recreate the mage guild to give additional damage bonuses (still possible).

If you have an idea, keep it very specific and try to consider it's effect on game play. I know Knight Templars have an advantage. That's intentional. If people think it's too big of an advantage, I can always tweak the knights a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Fri Jan 23 2009, 14:34

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Fri Jan 23 2009, 14:47

Sarah the DM wrote:
I'm open to any ideas to help dex-based characters become more competitive, but I can't have characters walking around that are nearly impossible to hit. When I started KT, I was concerned about monks gaining 100+ AC bonuses from cloth with the same plus as armor, dexterity bonuses, and their monk AC bonus. I could possibly create some better cloth items, but they would have to be class limited to prevent monks from being untouchable.

Also, the magic user damage immunity limitations are intentional. They are supposed to rely on spells more than items. As for damage per spell, I strongly recommend using the spell boosters. I also intended to recreate the mage guild to give additional damage bonuses (still possible).

If you have an idea, keep it very specific and try to consider it's effect on game play. I know Knight Templars have an advantage. That's intentional. If people think it's too big of an advantage, I can always tweak the knights a bit.

That's like basically saying that "it's my favorite character(these so called divine classes) and if you don't like i make them strongest, i can make them even stronger if players keep complaining like you do"
I thought that DM said that Templars were remade because players were abusing templars power that had that weapon... Now they are even more powerful than it used to be and sooner or later when everyone realizes how much stronger they are, we will have ONLY TEMPLARS ON KT and i thought that was the reason why you remade Templars Guild.
There's huge difference in stronger and overpowered, and Templars right now are way overpowered.
I understand that templars should be stronger, but not overpowered like they are right now. If you really insist go ahead and tweak templars, that will only lead to having everyone play templars and only templars much faster than it is now.

Personally I think taking Critical immunity off templars would make them unable to solo Hell comparing how it is right now and maybe lower templar's ammy AC by 1-2 points.

As for Str based characters, the only simple solution would be not having more than +10AC on Armor instead of Adding more AC on cloth armors and increasing every single monster's AB. These 5AC should make it enough so that no str fighters would tank... well you can still tank with these damage reduce items, but that's as well for any other class.

Abut casters... yeah there are spell boosters, but they dissapear after single use... why not make them have charges so it can be for multiple use. Also, I don't know how long does one spell booster last, i hope it lasts few rounds, not that it ends after casting following spell after spell booster.

Finally back to Dex based characters. Why do you keep saying that because monks get AC from wisdom modifier they are way stronger?? yes they do, but its impossible to keep high Dexterity and Wisdom at the same time... If a monk tweaks Wisdom, he looses AB by not spending points in Dex... Another thing is that a monk using either Shield or not wearing Robe looses all benefits from Monk Feats... Anyways That Wisdom AC only makes up for not wearing shield and if using kamas or unarmed having more attacks per round.
As for items, I'll start new topic and point out items that are overpowered as well as the ones that should be improved


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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Fri Jan 23 2009, 14:51

werehound wrote:
My sorcerer is my main character, and through experience there are just NOT ENOUGH spell stones out there. As casters get to the higher dungeons, monsters have so many immunities and HP that most of the spells are worthless in large groups, with the exception of Ice Storm (it affects nearly all monsters but she'devils and toad demons) A caster's spells spread out based on the number of monsters, so you could spend 16+ IGMS on one spawn of 3 monsters because damage to each monster is 1/3 of normal. Something that would solve this would be something like more spell bonuses the more bosses you defeat.

Some spells I would love to see increased are:

Level 1
Ice Dagger
Horizakaul's Boom


Level 2
Melf's Acid Arrow
Death Armor
Combust
Gedlee's Electric loop

Level 3
Fire Ball
Flame Arrow
Scintillating Sphere
Mestill's Acid breath
Negative Energy Burst

Level 4
Elemental Shield
Isaac's Lesser Missle Storm
Icestorm
FireBrand
Evard's Black Tentacles
StoneSkin


Level 5
Mestil's Acid Sheath (why was it lowered from +2 dmaage per level to +1? it's extremely useful)
Energy Buffer (elemental DR is great)
Ball Lightning
Cone of Cold


Level 6
Isaac's Greater Missle Storm (still dont understand why it was initially lowered)
Bigby's Forceful Hand (current STR check is very low)
Ethereal Visage
Acid Fog
Chain Lightning
Flesh to Stone (a DC increase could be nice)
Greater Stoneskin
Tenser's Transformation (HP, Str, CON increase without the shapechange would be perfect)


Level 7
Prismatic Spray
Finger of Death
great Thunderclap (a damage bonus would be nice)
Delayed Blast Fireball


Level 8
Premonition (maybe to +10 instead of +5?)
SunBurst
Horrid Wilting
Incendiary Cloud (could be really great if increased for mobs not immune to fire)

Level 9
Bigby's Crushing Hand (more bludg damage per round would be perfect)
Meteor Storm
Black Blade of Disaster (maybe remove the concentration, so a caster could have a decent tank and still cast?)


Anyway, these are ideas that would seriously help spell casters out.
there's another spell except Ice storm that works on a lot of immune monsters, but its considered evil... Horrid Wilting
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GammaGm



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PostSubject: Overpowered Templars underpowered Dexers   Fri Jan 23 2009, 19:37

Every server has balance issues. KT tends to favor the Knights guild. Other servers favor casters, dexers, clerics, chainsaw wielding semi-demonic jello molds from the 9th dimension or whatever.

I would like to propose that Hell, Dragons and the other up and coming domains that are 60 plus require team-play to survive and that an entry area be established that permits portal to team leader. A TEAM trip to hell would cost one gem or require one knight as leader. (Obviously knights could but should not abuse this privilege to get teams into hell then log off the team). The main problem is the number of spawns created by teams is just bonkers at this point discouraging cooperative play.

As to an assertion that hell is just abounding in pally and rusty sets- that is just not so. I have been making trips through there for about 4 weeks and have yet to see any part of the rusty set and have found only 2 parts of the pally set. I find bags of gold all the time from our most intrepid and skilled players (Gramma and Sky) in hell and leave mine there too.

The point is, don't assume Hell is some picnic for certain classes. Its been weeks since I've seen anyone defeat the beast and I've not done it myself. If anything, the mobs are over-powered and not select classes. Sure as heck would be easier to adjust the mobs than balance all the classes.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Fri Jan 23 2009, 19:54

GammaGm wrote:
Every server has balance issues. KT tends to favor the Knights guild. Other servers favor casters, dexers, clerics, chainsaw wielding semi-demonic jello molds from the 9th dimension or whatever.

I would like to propose that Hell, Dragons and the other up and coming domains that are 60 plus require team-play to survive and that an entry area be established that permits portal to team leader. A TEAM trip to hell would cost one gem or require one knight as leader. (Obviously knights could but should not abuse this privilege to get teams into hell then log off the team). The main problem is the number of spawns created by teams is just bonkers at this point discouraging cooperative play.

As to an assertion that hell is just abounding in pally and rusty sets- that is just not so. I have been making trips through there for about 4 weeks and have yet to see any part of the rusty set and have found only 2 parts of the pally set. I find bags of gold all the time from our most intrepid and skilled players (Gramma and Sky) in hell and leave mine there too.

The point is, don't assume Hell is some picnic for certain classes. Its been weeks since I've seen anyone defeat the beast and I've not done it myself. If anything, the mobs are over-powered and not select classes. Sure as heck would be easier to adjust the mobs than balance all the classes.

yes, its true that a lot of servers favor certain class... but when creating KT Sarah the DM said that he is balancing all classes so there's no favor towards some class... and he has been doing so.... i have already pointed this out in the beginning but obviously don't read everything.

Hold there a moment... there's no overpowered monster in hell, they have been already nerfed and if you play smart and think about what dmg resist and weapon to bring you survive as long as you have decent AC. There's so many items to choose from to make Hell pretty much easy, but its no ones fault players can't find a good way to make yourself ready for hell. If you can't ask players that know more, I don't think asking hurts or something.
As to Templars i wont say any more, i already said how hard it is to get items by giving my brother as an example and which way was it faster to get legendary items.

EDIT:
i already noticed that mostly everyone already plays templar... it was the same back when templars had guild weapon and that was the reason DM remade Templars Guild... but i see some players tend not to understand it.
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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Sat Jan 24 2009, 03:13

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Feb 12 2009, 02:46

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PostSubject: Re: spells/abilities   Thu Feb 12 2009, 06:50

Not really... could you be MORE specific?
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