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 Epic mage armor

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Liquid



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PostSubject: Epic mage armor   Mon Jan 12 2009, 15:49

Is it an intentional KT change to have Epic Mage armor last only a few rounds instead of the normal 24 hours?

I honestly can't understand that-- EMA adds +5 deflect, natural, armor enhancement, and dodge AC. By the time you're close to level 40, 15 of that is probably already covered by gear (deflect, natural, armor), so you usually only get +5 dodge. At which point limiting it to almost useless really seems a slap in the face, especially when you consider that Paladins can get around +10 to +15 dodge ac from Divine Shield, which has had its duration *increased* significantly on the server.

By the way, is there a unified list of these sorts of changes anywhere? It is starting to get REALLY frustrating making characters on the server only to find that X feat is broken, nerfed, etc, so you might have just as well not spent the time leveling up to 40 in the first place. The option to relevel helps a bit, but in some cases there's just no point in releveling if you were counting on something working as expected and you're overly nerfed without it.

Ok, thanks again Smile
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:18

Yes, epic mage armor's duration was drastically reduced, because it can be used in combination with the angel's buff to create extremely high (over 100) ACs. While I'm not worried about short term ACs that high, 24 hours per spell allowed players who were nearly impossible to hit for extended periods of time. Those players would tank for other players--basically an unbeatable combination.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:23

BTW, +5 to those four AC types means +20 to your total AC.

As for nerfed spells, consider it part of the interesting aspect of KT to figure out how it all works. Some spells and spell-like abilities are strengthened or weakened, but they are all fundamentally the same as the original. In other words, a fireball might do quite a bit more fire damage if you have the right object, skill levels, etc, but it still does fire damage.

In my opinion, KT offers substantially more balanced play than the original NWN.
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Nuli



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:32

Though epic mage armor gives you +5 armor, deflection, natural and dodge bonuses to ac, I think what Liquid is pointing out is that none of those bonuses to armor class stack (with the exception of dodge bonuses) so with the right gear, epic mage armor is only giving you +5 to ac for the stacking dodge bonuses.

Nuli
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:38

As far as I know, all of the AC types stack up to a maximum of +20. +15 is the best you'll find on any item of any AC type, so I think the +5 gives an effective gain of +20 (+5 times 4). Could you test it a bit more and let me know?

I also suspect there are certain AC spells that stack. No spell should stack on itself, nor should similar spells (lesser and greater) stack on each other. Yet, I've seen some folks cast something on themselves repeatedly to get unbelievably high AC. From what I've seen, the duration isn't long enough for it to unbalance play, but I'd love to know what they are doing to get those high ACs.
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Nuli



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:45

I'll have to look at it, but my understanding was that armor, natural, and deflection bonuses to ac do not stack with each other. So, for instance:

You are wearing a Chumley Helm (+4 deflection), ring of protection +2 (+2 deflection) and weilding an offhand axe (+10 deflection) your net ac bonus is +10 since only the highest applies.

Same goes for natural (which isnt bad since i think only ammy slot gives you a natural ac bonus and maybe the barkskin spell so unlikley to see overlap) and armor (mostly from wearing armor, but also can't stack things like bracers of armor and a shield).

The only bonuses to armor that stack are dodge bonuses to a maximum of +20.

Nuli
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Nuli



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:47

Oh and forgot to mention...the players stacking spell effects on themselves, quite honestly, I think people don't understand about all the stacking effects and will layer themselves with spells and effects that overlap and do absolutley nothing for them. I've seen people cast stoneskin and great stoneskin on themselves which to my knowledge does absolutely nothing extra for them, for example.

Nuli
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 20:57

Unfortunately, the game doesn't tell me what spell they are stacking, but I can see the AC go up and up on their character sheet. Of course, you and I both know the character sheet does not necessarily correspond to actual battle. For example, the maximum AB bonus from all sources (stacked or otherwise) is +20. It doesn't matter if you have a +20 sword with a +20 AB on it. You only get +20. HOWEVER, the character sheet often shows ABs boosted higher than the +20 cap, even though the battle text proves the AB is stuck at +20.
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Liquid



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Jan 13 2009, 21:34

First thanks for your replies. A couple points to make:

Epic mage armor only stacks the +5 dodge bonus, up to the +20 dodge bonus cap. Other typical dodge bonuses are: haste (+4), gear (usually boots), divine shield, bard song (varies but usually +5, and many many times more often), mage armor (+1). The other 3 sources (natural, armor enchant, deflect) most certainly *don't* stack with equipment, in either the character sheet or the combat log. Nuli is correct, I was arguing that a +5 dodge ac buff, which is effectively what this is if you have decent equipment on, is underpowered enough compared to other sources of dodge ac such that the short duration seems unnecessary.

The stoneskin examples you cited actually do stack, just in a funny way. If you cast stoneskin (level 4), greater stoneskin (level 6), and premonition (level 8 ), they will be worn down in the order they are cast. So first you will have 10/+5 dr until stoneskin goes, 20/+5 until gss goes, and 30/+5 until premo goes, up to their absorption limits.

The character often lies about AB bonuses because it doesn't enforce the +20 magic cap to AB. As for AC, I've never seen it go wrong and it should be accurate about the max AC. Situations often lower the AC of course, -2 if flanked, lose dex and dodge bonuses if flat-footed, etc. BTW if you have uncanny dodge, you only keep the dex bonus to ac if flat-footed, you never keep the dodge ac. There is a cheasy way to stack your dodge ac to the +20 cap using spells, but I won't post it so people don't abuse it.

Edit: Sarah I PM'd you the spells that people cast to stack their AC super high, so you can disable it if you like. Not putting it on the forums so people don't go do it Wink
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werehound



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Wed Jan 14 2009, 21:17

Actually, the +4 bonus to AC from haste is it's own category of "MISCALLANEOUS" hard coded into the game. SO if you had boots with Haste and +20 Dodge AC, you'd get the full +24 bonus.

**EDIT** So it is. I'm getting my bonuses confused with NWN2 now.


Last edited by werehound on Thu Jan 15 2009, 10:33; edited 1 time in total
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Liquid



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Thu Jan 15 2009, 03:10

I don't know where you're coming up with that, but haste is definitely a +4 dodge bonus affected by the +20 cap. I made +20 boots in the toolset with haste to be sure, and the AC shown in the char sheet on a naked character with no dex mod (30 AC) was accurate in the combat log (a 30 hit, 29 did not).

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Haste
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Liquid



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Thu Jan 15 2009, 03:13

By the way the Angel AC buff stacks with a bunch of other spells, not only epic mage armor: barkskin, shield of faith, magic vestment, etc. If those spells are cast after the Angel buff, they don't add AC. This isn't a problem with EMA, it's a problem with the Angel buff stacking with many spells, EMA is just one of many, and is the equivalent of casting those 3 cleric spells, plus divine shield with 20 charisma or level 15 bard song.
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Zog2

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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Feb 03 2009, 02:02

Sarah the DM wrote:
Unfortunately, the game doesn't tell me what spell they are stacking, but I can see the AC go up and up on their character sheet.
...
My guess is that the spell was Undeath's Eternal Foe
The NWNWiki notes on this spell are good:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Undeath%27s_eternal_foe

It used to give +4 dodge AC, so it could be cast several times to boost everyones dodge AC to the +20 cap (wouldn't last very long, but do-able).
I'm guessing here... but was this spell was maybe modified some time ago in KT ...but kept this +4 AC (dodge) bonus?
I say this, because (as you'll see on that Wiki page) the 1.69 update changed the AC type to Deflection ...so it would no longer stack, either with itself or other sources of AC(def). But at KT the AC bonus from this spell still seems to be dodge.

EMA AC types do not stack with other items giving deflection/armour/natural AC, but the dodge bonus does stack (up to the +20 dodge cap)

There's a good page on Armour Class, and what stacks and what doesn't, at:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_class

...thought I would put this on the forum, because those who want to "cheat" like this are obviously already doing it, and I personally don't think any caster worth having in party would "waste" so many spell slots on UEF ...other spells are much more useful and last longer. I do think that UEF should be changed back into line with the updated (v1.69) NWN version on KT though
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Liquid



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PostSubject: Re: Epic mage armor   Tue Feb 10 2009, 19:11

Foe is not the spell that is typically used to cheat the system. I sent a PM to Sara but got no response.

There's a bug with mage armor and shadow conjuration: mage armor, where you can alternate casting between the two and hit the +20 dodge cap.

The simple fix would be to remove the dodge bonus from the shadow version.
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