Looking for Balance, part I.

[The following is an opinion piece meant to offer positive criticism and ideas for the KT server. I know it is not yet fully finished, and any areas of the critique that are being worked on or planned out can just be ignored.]

I love the server, there's no denying that if one looks at the time I put into it. But along the same lines, if anyone knows me, they know that I can't help but throw out my 2 cents or have a tendancy to focus on the negative more than the positive. The following is ways to try and balance out some issues that I've seen on the KT server in the last month. No, I'm not talking about giving Evil more cool stuff, heh, I'm focusing more on class and item issues that cause an imbalance and "force" players to play a narrow range of characters with only a few choice pieces of gear in order to prosper.

Without further adieu, here are some of my ideas/observations, do what you wish with them.

-Crimson Monks are overpowered and upset the class curve in an extreme way. I tried an experiment once in which I wore ONLY the robe, ammy, and gloves, nothing else, and went as far as I could. I killed Lord Dire at level 32, and up until that battle had used the "Healing touch" ability of my gloves, the only healing I ever used, twice total (from level 1 to 32). That is just plain wrong.
-No more "named/custom" short swords, Long swords, bastard swords, or flails, we have enough. Instead, please bring in some other weapons...where are the named scimitars? Kamas? Halberds? etc... A great variety of swords means everyone uses swords, which get boring quick.
-The formula/script/whatever for the Crimson Monk set to go from level 1-20, through 60th level is utterly brilliant, and i think probably the best feature of KT. It gives you that real sense of acomplishment through the once-purgatorial levels of 41-60...I can't stress it enough, that feature is fantastic. So how about something like that for ALL classes? Why not like 4 simple sets, say "Elemental sets" in which there is a "Set of Fire" with a robe, helm, and glove that improve similar to Crimson Order items when you find whatever item is the equivelent of a Holy Shrine? Say the Set of Fire is for Casters...Wiz/Sorc/PM/Bard and has stats that correspond to all 4 of those classes (Int & Cha go up together, spellcraft improved, etc..). The Set of Earth could be Fighter/Paladin/WM centric with Plate mail that improves....Set of Water could be Leather armor for Rangers/Druids/Barbs/Thieves, and lastly a Set of Air that is another robe-based set for Monks/Dexers/Clerics. All 4 sets have 3 pieces like Crimson, and ALL classes can revel in the coolness that is that item/level progression. Just a thought.
-Please bring back the ability for melee weapons to be raised to +20. I find it irritating that my Fighter/WM has nearly the exact same AB as my Crimson Order Monk...again, as if all classes are designed to always be one step behind the CO.
-Similar to the Weapon +20 thing, please allow Armor to go higher than +10. Same fighter/WM example has an AC (with complete rusty set) of 76, and thats using the "Lvl 1 Rogue/Tumble" exploit most dislike...76 while my monk cruises around with 88.

[Excuse the constant comparing of things to Crimson Order, but when all the numbers are crunched, one can't help but be bewildered. The server has become a "Monks Only" club, which is beyond class fairness or balance. And they're not better by a little bit, they're better by A LOT.]

-Legendary sets for all classes would be a nice thing.
-Gold is too abundant, it's completely devestated the economy of the server. Nothing has any real value anymore, and barter is solely the way to go...and the only real money sink for high levels is improving weapons.

Sarah, I love the work you do, but you have to release the reins a bit...you gotta start letting us have a chance with builds/weapons/sets other than just the ones you yourself prefer to use. It's no wonder the Crimson Order is so over-powered, you love monks...the same with a legendary Barb set that rules, yet no decent set for say Wiz. Melee Fighter types have been neutered while good alignment gets you everywhere you want to go (Neutral is an alignment too, and not overtly offensive as evil). Devestating Crit is a "Sin" and totally screws one over, yet the evil monsters we use it against can employ any tool they wish (my point there being "we're the heroes, we should have more advantages while they have numbers...and at the very least our own abilities shouldn't be screwed with or taken away").

No one likes "fairness" if coming from ones personal perspective...we want it our way. The difference is, this is a public server for ideals and creativity beyond just one viewpoint.

Again, please take no offense by any of this, my motives are pure and positive. Good gaming, everyone.

-Shal, aka Mythos, aka WAR!

"-No more "named/custom" short swords, Long swords, bastard swords, or flails, we have enough. Instead, please bring in some other weapons...where are the named scimitars? Kamas? Halberds? etc... A great variety of swords means everyone uses swords, which get boring quick."

I agree..see these for some ideas, a few of which have been implemented:

https://ktnwn.rpg-board.net/items-f6/items-not-for-the-faint-of-heart-t294.htm

https://ktnwn.rpg-board.net/items-f6/exotic-and-under-represented-weapon-ideas-t291.htm

nuli

Not trying to bash the system you've set up, but personally I dislike the whole "on hit" feature of weapons. The on hit defeats the purpose of having strength to do more damage or having several types of damage on a weapon to do more. I personally preferred the way you had it on DX2 where you had regular damage types on a weapon and then a few special weapons had a special on hit, or you could activate the weapon ability and do on hit damage. I just feel like this whole "on hit" style of weapons just ruins the point of using a bigger weapon when a smaller one can do just as much if not more.

Anyways there's my two cents, I just enjoy the challenge of being a fighter with a huge weapon and I feel like fighters have been effectively cut out of KT.

Phoenix wrote:

Not trying to bash the system you've set up, but personally I dislike the whole "on hit" feature of weapons. The on hit defeats the purpose of having strength to do more damage or having several types of damage on a weapon to do more. I personally preferred the way you had it on DX2 where you had regular damage types on a weapon and then a few special weapons had a special on hit, or you could activate the weapon ability and do on hit damage. I just feel like this whole "on hit" style of weapons just ruins the point of using a bigger weapon when a smaller one can do just as much if not more.

Anyways there's my two cents, I just enjoy the challenge of being a fighter with a huge weapon and I feel like fighters have been effectively cut out of KT.

I offered some modified .2das that allow users to add from 3d4-40d20 damage (and everything in between, 23d8 for example) that would also allow people who didn't have the .2das to see the damages (other versions make people see "Bad StrRef" for the damage if not done properly), but it my offer was turned down; Sarah doesn't want to use anything "that can make people require a hak"... which it doesn't, and I've said that. He also won't use 3rd party tools like NWNx2.

So, for now, the only way to get the damages effective enough for the later areas of the game are to use OnHit effects/scripts.

That was kind of my point. The required on hit effect defeats the purpose of using a large weapon or being different at all because there is nothing to gain.

The "on hit" effects do not hinder strength bonuses in any way. The "on hit" is equal to d8 damage dice. I chose the "on hit" route, because I can program weapons to act however I want. There is effectively no limit to the damages or effects I could program on hit, plus it gives me the ability to quickly adjust all weapons in the game (including the one's used by monsters) simply by tweaking the core "on hit" script.

I don't really understand Phoenix's point about larger weapons. What I mean is, it's not the "on hit" effect that makes larger weapons no better than smaller ones. A great sword with a d20 of acid damage is going to do the same acid damage as a dagger with a d20 of acid. Same thing with the "on hit" effect. A level 10 acid is going to do the same damage for both weapons. Strength and enhancement bonuses are the same for either damage system (the "on hit" custom system or the die-based one). Base damage for the larger weapon is slightly higher I think, but base weapon damage is pretty much irrelevant on all weapons at high levels.

I do want to make it clear that KT does indeed offer a large weapon damage bonus that is programmed into the custom "on hit" script, but it seems few people use it. It's possible for a fighter to do 400 damage (AVERAGE) in KT per hit. A barbarian could do even more.

Abriymoch, I appreciate the offer, but the module is heavily scripted around my custom on hit system. To change it at this point would be a major undertaking, and I would lose the ability to further tweak the entire melee system from a single point (something I can do now with my custom scripting). There are many features written into the "on hit" system that are not visible to players. I didn't use it simply because of higher damages (that your custom 2da would all provide). It has many other purposes.

I understand completely. =)

I was just letting him know that I had offered in the past. Working on my own module now, i can understand why you'd want to keep the general scripts.

I guess i'm having trouble phrasing my point correctly so let me try again.

All of the higher level monsters have been made resistant to normal damages such as bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, etc. So therefore it doesn't matter what size the weapon we use is because all we are relying upon is the on hit effect. So really there is no advantage to using say a scythe over a longsword because they will both do the same amount of damage if the on hit effect is the same.

So I guess the easiest suggestion would be to ask you to add larger on hit effects to larger weapons, thereby creating a reason to use said larger weapons OR to get rid of the damage resistances so that weapon damage will be applied. Did that help clarify my idea at all?

=D

Make Small/Tiny Weapons do d6 damage, Medium do d8 and large do d12 (since you cant use a shield with them).

Those are average damages of 70, 90, and 130 at OnHit level 20.

I'd like that; it'd make things matter, more.

I agree, that was what I was trying to point out!

There are already class-based large weapon bonuses in the module.

Sarah the DM wrote:

There are already class-based large weapon bonuses in the module.

So, I spent all of last night leveling a barbarian (using a great axe) and a fighter (using double axe) to 60.

Both pure classes.

I saw no damage increase at all with he fighter. I was using a double axe +12 that did OnHit level 23 cold damage, and it was around 100-120 damage per hit.

The barbarian's rage is delicious. However, once you hit D14, it's not enough. The Greatexe was a Greataxe +12 at level 60 with OnHit Acid level 23 as well, and the damage from it was just about the same as the fighter.



It would be nice if you could give us some sort of hint telling us how to get these bonuses, instead of us spending valuable sleep time trying to figure it out from "It's possible for fighters to do 400 damage every hit" and "There are already class-based bonuses in place for large weapons."

How is this possible?

What are these bonuses?

I used both my computers and played my characters together last night. Got em both *to* D15, but not past it.

I will test the scripts again and let you know if they are working correctly.

The scripts appear to work well. Larger weapons do more damage (in the right hands) than small weapons. I generally like to keep the specifics to myself, allowing players to work them out. Generally speaking: melee-based classes get better bonuses, larger weapons can do more damage than smaller ones of the same power, certain classes get additional bonuses for class-like behavior, like unarmed monks, rangers fighting outdoors, barbarians fighting with large weapons, etc.

I will confirm that the best weapons in the module in the hands of the right classes can dish out over 400 damage per hit and over 800 with a weapon power up. There are several weapons with power ups that basically double the weapon's damage for a short duration based on the character's constitution.