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 Bard's Song

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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Bard's Song   Mon Sep 06 2010, 18:48

Last night I logged on my Bard to check how high crimson monk with vile king key can get its AC up to and guess what.... My 23lvl bard's with 55 Perform song added ONLY +1 AC, 4 skill, 4ab, 4 magic damage.
I ask to give bards song back the way it should be. If you wish to play with the song because some players didn't seem quite happy with bards song. Fine with me, but make it stronger after 40lvl. Don't reduce it for someone who doesn't wish to go pure bard.

I ask for your answer on this topic please and thank you for your hard work.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Tue Sep 07 2010, 12:52

I know you don't agree, but I don't like multi-classed characters who try to get high skill scores in multiple class-oriented skills like UMD and perform. Perform is the bard's prime skill. If you want to maximize that skill, you'll have to concentrate on bard. Same thing goes for rogue. I'm not going to allow people to take a level of bard and maximize perform and a level of rogue and maximize UMD. If you like UMD or perform, then you'll need to devote yourself exclusively to a class. The perform and UMD skills are considerably modified and much, much stronger than the original versions at high character levels. If you want to create RDD/rogue/whatever multi-classed characters, that's fine with me, but I'm not going to let you create some uber combination of the best of all three classes. You want to be a jack of all trades? Don't expect to master any of them. On the other hand, specialize in a class and you'll be really good at it, just like in the real world.

BTW, here's how the skill points work out:

Perform skill counts 1 point per bard level and 1/2 point for other classes.
Add in charisma modifier.
Add in 1 point for each extended level (past 40) divided by number of classes.
Add in 5 points of perform skill for completing dungeons D13-D16.
20% bonus for pure bard.
Add in bonuses for items.


A pure bard with 10 Charisma (no Charisma bonus) and 43 perform skill points at level 40 has an approximate perform skill of 100 after killing the Vile King (43 + 0 + 20 + 20) X 1.2 = 99.6. A dual classed bard with 43 points in perform and 20 levels of bard would have 23 + 10 + 10 = 43 at level 60. They get no bonuses for D13-D16.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Tue Sep 07 2010, 19:13

well its not really the same thing with bards song like with UMD because in order to have higher/better song you do need lvls in bard as well as perform to go along with it. That's totally different than taking 1 bard or rogue lvl and maxing UMD at 40lvl.
Here's a chart with Bard's Song bonuses.

Bard level Perform Attack Damage Will Fortitude Reflex HP AC Skills
1 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 6 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
3 9 1 2 1 1 0 0 0 0
6 12 1 2 1 1 1 0 0 1
8 15 2 2 1 1 1 8 0 1
11 18 2 2 1 1 1 8 2 2
14 21 2 3 1 1 1 16 3 2
15 24 2 3 2 2 2 16 4 3
16 30 2 3 3 2 2 20 5 4
17 35 2 3 3 2 2 22 5 5
18 40 2 3 3 2 2 24 5 6
19 45 2 3 3 2 2 26 5 7
20 50 2 3 3 2 2 28 5 8
21 55 2 3 3 2 2 30 5 9
22 60 2 3 3 2 2 32 5 11
23 65 2 3 3 2 2 34 5 12
24 70 2 3 3 2 2 36 5 13
25 75 2 3 3 2 2 38 6 14
26 80 2 3 3 2 2 40 6 15
27 85 2 3 3 2 2 42 6 16
28 90 2 3 3 2 2 44 6 17
29 95 2 3 3 2 2 46 6 18
30 100 2 3 3 2 2 48 7 19


As you can see its totally different than taking 1 bard/rogue lvl and max UMD or other skills at 40lvl because whatever you max perform or not, without proper bard lvls it won't be of any use. Song lasts few rounds without lasting inspiration which increases songs duration by about 100 rounds. 105 rounds with lingering song and lasting inspiration. In order to take lasting inspiration you must be epic bard so this feat alone requires 21lvl bard otherwise bards song is pretty useless as it lasts mere few rounds.

The perform required for better song is pretty high as well... its impossible to get it that high without items with + skill bonus: perform.

Now if you want song to be better after 30lvl, you can do so for these that complained about that their song wasnt good enough. Just increase songs effectiveness after 30lvl. Just don't change anything before that because as you can see from the chart its requirements are pretty much tough to get already.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Tue Sep 07 2010, 22:33

On KT, bard level limits maximum perform skill as I noted. Duration is the only other factor affected by bard level.

Where did you get the list of bard song benefits? It looks like it came from the original script, but KT is heavily customized.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Wed Sep 08 2010, 00:54

Sarah the DM wrote:
On KT, bard level limits maximum perform skill as I noted. Duration is the only other factor affected by bard level.

Where did you get the list of bard song benefits? It looks like it came from the original script, but KT is heavily customized.

It is from original script Bard Song And I feel that anything below 30lvl shouldn't be changed... because you changing it wastes spent 21lvls in bard + feats required to strenghten bards song and making it usefull
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Wed Sep 08 2010, 15:00

This is probably my last post in next month. I am going to visit my family in Poland for a month. But i would like you to fix bard song.

I am with you on players taking 1lvl and maxing skills as I am against that as well and I don't do that. Whenever I make a char, I do try avoiding doing that because I feel it shouldn't be like that. But I am totally against what you did with bard song. NO no no no and no. First of all you just made 2 feats useless for bards... skill focus: perform and EPIC skill focus: perform, because why take them if they get perform for free and they have enough in perform to have better song.

I made 23bard 10rdd 7wm. maxed perform with base charisma(45), Skill focus: Perform(3), Epic Skill Focus: Perform(10)
That's 58 Perform Total. So with just that i only have 21lvl song but i could have it 23lvl if i had items with +perform. I don't use them because that skill bonus perform is on a bad items which don't give me anything else except just skill bonus perform.

My brother has 26bard lvl and he as well has 21lvl song because skill bonus: perform is on wrong items which would be a waste if he used them.

Doing what you did to bard song you just made a lot of builds useless(I look for fun builds to play that me or my brother would enjoy playing. Probably a lot of players do that as well). If you could leave bard song the way it is, just make it stronger for 30+lvl and make it as powerful as you wanted for pure bards I wouldn't care less if someone made a bard just for uber song. But you ruining so many builds just because you feel there shouldn't be multiclassing. Everyone should play pure builds makes a lot of players leave KT. I could care less if you think there shouldnt be multiclassing. If you make pure builds way stronger, its up to you but don't ruin multiclass builds for others because you feel that way.

I think you are trying to make KT so everyone could enjoy playing there. I am sorry but there's nothing to enjoy if you cannot play builds that are fun to play.

Thank you for your time I do realize how much work you have and how much time scripting takes and you put time into it so don't take it personally because I am not trying to offend anyone. I am always trying to help as much as i can and I am not doing it for my own personal gain. Like with templars guild, i was so against it because everyone was abusing them for their personal gain while the guild was made for totally different purpose (I never made templar because I hate getting edge over others believe me or not, up to you, I don't really care).

I should write something about Crimson Order because they are very overpowered comparing to everything on KT but I simply don't have time to go over all of it. I don't exactly know what bonuses they get but It does look like they're overpowered. 88AC without no buffs? 100 divine damage, unarmed? (For monks, unarmed/kama is like 1h wpn + shield for every other build) why? because they get AC bonus from wisdom modifier, they don't get shield penalty, they loose bonuses that could be on a shield, but its not a loss as its covered by grand master's belt or other items. Unarmed on hit damage is 1.5x higher than 1h weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Bard's Song   Wed Sep 08 2010, 20:47

Skill focus doesn't stack. The best you can get from skill focus is +10. Those points are not modified. A multi-classed bard gets 10 points from the epic skill focus the same as a single-classed bard.

I think you misunderstood. Pure bards don't get the base perform skill points for free. They have to put points in perform. It's just that pure bards get 1 for 1 that they put in perform. A multi-classed bard only gets 1 for 2 points that they put in for the non-bard levels.

Free perform points for the extended levels are also awarded to both single and multi-classed bards. The difference there is that a single-classed bard gets 1 for 1, but a multi-classed bard has their free perform points divided by the number of classes. A level 60 pure bard gets 20 extra skill points on perform. A level 60 triple-classed bard gets 6 points (20/3 rounded down to nearest integer).

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