Knights Templar NWN

A forum for the Knights Templar mod for Neverwinter Nights
 
HomeFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Weapon Anvil operating instructions

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sat Jul 17 2010, 23:42

I am a rank newbie to weapon crafting on KT and am hoping there is a sticky somewhere describing the operating instructions for the Anvil. I have mostly been getting help by either word of mouth or someone else just doing it for me. The attempts I made tonight really left me scratching my head.

I have a CC rogue that is badly struggling and needs improvement on all fronts, so I went to craft him some new daggers hoping that he might die less than every 5 minutes if he killed better. He can equip a standard EB+4 dagger so I decided to start work with that.

First, I took one of my "crafting" toons, a level 40 pure monk with "Craft Weapon" maxed to 43 (the silly half-Orc Barbie weapon crafter could not hold a dagger because it was "too small"). The monk keened the dagger with a sharpening stone, equiped the dagger, used the anvil and ONE Garnet and produced a Fire weapon 2d12 dmg, keen, EB+4, ON HIT level 9 dagger.

When the rogue (26 rogue, 1 SD, 9 Assassin for 36 total levels) tried to equip the dagger, it was rejected wityh a statement about UMD failure. I thought this was strange since this is the only toon I have with max'd UMD.

NEXT, I tried the anvil with the rogue (NO skill points in craft weapon) as crafter and a fresh new EB+4 dagger and with FOUR Garnets produced EXACTLY the same weapon as described above and this dagger has no problems being equipped.

I am thinking there is something here that I do not understand and I am hoping that this custom crafting system is documented somewhere since those gems don't grow on trees and I can't afford to waste them with experiments and producing things that can't be equipped.

Some items seem to follow ILR rules and have their equipping levels listed and many others (like the basic EB+ weapons) do not. I don't really understand THAT either. Seems someone is a very talented coder and has been very deep into modyfing quite a lot of the underlying NWN system.

I know that CC toons are penalized on this server based on one of the other posts in this section, but my rogue is mostly rogue (26 out of 36 levels are rogue as will be the rest) but that should not cause a UMD failure in this case.

I am also interested in general understanding of how to calculate whether a toon can equip a weapon crafted by another toon.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Abriymoch



Posts : 157
Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 08:02

The base level to equip crafted weapons and armor is the level of the initial crafter. So, generally speaking, a level 26 can not equip a weapon created by a level 40. The same used to go for (or still does) cloaks.

Also, that dagger you used with your rogue using four garnets was created with incremental crafting; i.e. you spent more materials to make it better. (level 9) The dagger your monk made with one garnet was immediately level 9, and could have gone to level 12 (due to the monk being a higher level). With the monk, you had the initial higher level, coupled with the bonus costs for crafting extra materials into it.

Craft Armor and Craft Weapon only determine the success rate of the crafting, and not the level of the enchantment (from my experience).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 09:50

Thanks very much for the quick and knowledgeable reply.

If I understand what you are saying, while in my case I have two identical daggers for all external inspection, there exists a hidden parameter of some sort that identifies the level of the crafter in some way and triggers the UMD failure if the parameter is too high for the toon trying to equip?

And, you say this is probably not the "Craft Weapons" score, but more likely the toon total level (40 in the case of my crafter). My user toon is now level 37, so I wonder if it will be able to use the failing dagger when it gets to level 40? I also find it odd that the user toon with a UMD of 40 could not use an item crafted by a toon 3 levels higher. I admitedly have never fussed with UMD much and never learned the math for it's proper useage, but I had thought someone had told me that UMD lets you use items above the normal ILR. So a rogue could use an item several levels higher than normally available. Maybe that's less than 3 levels?

To my way of thinking, this system makes having a crafter toon seem kind of pointless as it will have to be higher level to have high "Craft Weapon", but the weapons can't be equipped by any toon with a lower level if I understand correctly. Furthermore, if the crafter toon is a playable toon and you advance it even further than 40, you make it useless as a crafter by the time you get to level 60, because no other toon lower than 60 can equip the items it crafts?
(Not exactly sure if this follows after a toon gets to level 40 - depends on what is stored and compared in that hidden parameter on the item.



Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 10:39

I just did a little more poking around in the toolset to try to get my head around this thing and I found that everything equippable has a parameter called "Required Level". This parameter IS used by the NWN ILR system to decide whether a dagger can be equipped and is a simple integer based on the user's total levels. This parameter is "auto-generated" as you add, remove, or alter item properties. As far as I could tell, there is no provision for crafter level and is strictly a function of the properties when making an item in the toolset.

This leaves the possibility of the crafting code writing to this integer variable directly at the time of crafting and somehow adding in some kind of crafter level bonus. This actually seems unlikely to me as it looks like a calculated field rather than stored.

OR, the standard NWN function "AddItemProperty" might unexpectedly somehow alter this variable based on the crafter level. Seems unlikely for the reason stated above.

Alternatively, the crafting system might store a completely different variable based on the crafter level directly on the item and the clever module builder might have then then altered the module level OnEquip script to detect the crafter level. If this is the case, it seems like overkill to me. ILR already takes care of what can be equipped based on properties (and/or UMD which I really don't understand very well) without additional penalty. OR maybe the builder would want to override the UMD system as too powerful? Hard to say, but it looks like custom code causing this odd behavior somewhere to me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 12:34

KT uses it's own custom scripting to determine level requirements. It makes the weapon level appropriate for the character who crafts it. That prevents high level characters from making powerful weapons for low level characters.

The power of the "on hit" effect depends on the level of the character crafting the weapon. Crafting skill primarily determines the chance of success, with high level weapons being much harder to successfully craft.

Once a weapon is crafted, players can continue to add gems of the same type up to a limit that depends on the original crafter's level. A high level crafter can add up to 5 more gems for 5d8 additional damage.

I've added many new weapons to the module recently, including several legendary ones. Fire-based weapons will do pretty good in the early dungeons, but I think it wise to carry weapons with several different damage types. No damage type, including divine, will work on all creatures.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 20:06

Thanks, Sarah the DM. You are definitely one of my bigger heroes for your scripting skills and knowledge of the depths of the NWN software to which I have never delved. I think you have done an outstanding job in general of making a clean well thought out world and I mostly like your crafting system, too.

I can't say as I am a big fan of the way you did this particular part of an otherwise terrific system, though. I just used the Rod of Detection and the Level 40 crafter made a dagger that, as you say, is "level 40". The Level 36 crafter made an otherwise identical dagger that is "level 20" according to the "Rod" ?!?!

I really see no practical difference whether a Level 40 crafter makes an ON HIT (9) weapon or whether Level 35 crafter makes an identical ON HIT (9) weapon. The important point is whether a toon can EQUIP an equivalent weapon, not who made it for them and I don't understand why it has to be so confusing just to try to prevent people from helping each other out by making weapons. Any weapon made over the users equipable ability is automatically already dealt with, so who cares who made it and what their level was?

BUT, if I understand what you are saying is that the two otherwise identical ON HIT (9) weapons that I made are NOT equivalent (i.e. there is an ON HIT (9x20) and an ON HIT (9x40), I'd say this was a bit of overkill in design and fairly confusing. If it's that complicated, I'd like to see the table that describes how this works, again so that I know how to plan for it and best use it. What are the break points? Is it level 20, 40, 60? So can a level 39 crafter make an ON HIT (9) that is still useable by a level 22 toon? When does it make the most sense to start a new weapon because you can get twice the damage if you make it right? What is the formula that you are using for the damage? I'd also like to see the description changed to reflect that otherwise equivalent looking weapons are not.

Maybe you wanted to give more power to upper level players, so the bonus damage from the ON HIT (9x20) is 9x20=180 dmg where the ON HIT (9x40) is 9x40=360 dmg. You could still have used a simpler linear scale of ON HIT (1..n) levels and restrict usage by your custom OnEquip script and thus avoided having otherwise identical weapons from two toons working differently.

Oh well, now I know - at least sort of. Well, I know that I don't understand it as well as I'd like. I do know that the system is somewhat confusing, not well documented, and not well understood by most players.

---------------

On a related note, as mentioned before, I'd also like to see the ILR level rating on the weapon, but maybe you can't get there once you bypass the system for the special treatment you give weapons. At very least, you should be able to have the anvil tell the user the equipable level BEFORE you craft it since it is such a tricky system, but I guess you can always use the Rod after the fact, but it sure would be nice to know before you waste gems making an unuseable weapon.

-----------------

Oh well, My two cents. I am just a relative newbie here, but I have seen you solicit input and opinions from the players in the forums for other topics like this one and you seem like a pretty sharp and decent guy and I thank you for making and maintaining a good module, despite the occassional odd things.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 20:14

PS. I assume that all of those UMD skill points I had probably work fine for the rest of the items in the game (since they seem to display ILR values), but do not work for weapons since a level 37 rogue with UMD=40 cannot equip a dagger made by a toon at level 40 (delta 3 levels). Do you ignore UMD in your custom weapon system?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Abriymoch



Posts : 157
Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 20:33

The Engine-based ILR (that you mentioned seeing) was disabeld on KT. Sarah uses his very own rules for determining level restrictions (as you've noticed).

As for UMD on KT.... only Sarah knows how it works, because it sure doesn't follow the item value rules as it did with Vanilla NWN.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 22:18

oh, well that's probably a good thing and hat's off to Sarah for figuring out how to do that since the standard ILR is a little restrictive, but the equip levels apparently still work and match the values as shown on almost all items I have seen and it looks like all items available are custom.

The EB+n weapons, however, show no equip level and just fail with a cryptic UMD error message if you can't equip them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Sun Jul 18 2010, 23:30

You happened to find the dividing line between crafting levels. It was easier for me to jump it in increments of 20, so that's what happened to you. If the crafter is a certain level, the weapon will be limited to level 40. If the crafter is one level lower (under the dividing line) it will be a level 20 item. This was a coarse level requirement so that high level players would not generally hand down uber weapons to lowbies. It's worked pretty well so far, but you happened to find the stepping point.

As for UMD, the system is similar to the standard system in that there's a penalty (to the UMD check) for using a class or alignment restricted weapon. Also, and I know this causes grief, only rogue levels count UMD at full value. This stops the exploit where players take one level of rogue. For example, a level 20 rogue / level 20 fighter with a UMD of 40 would get 20 UMD for the rogue levels plus 10 more for the fighter levels. If you want to maximize UMD stick with rogue.

There are additional UMD modifications/customizations. I don't recall if assassin counts at full value or not.

I see a lot of players who multiclass. That's fine, but epic levels (over 40) are split automatically between your classes, and many scripts, like UMD, are based on your core class. Jack of all trades, master of none applies here. Alternately, a master of one class will be the most powerful possible for that specific class but will have weaknesses inherent in the class chosen. For example, a pure rogue will be the best rogue possible, but it's still a rogue which is best as a support character.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Abriymoch



Posts : 157
Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Mon Jul 19 2010, 02:28

Sarah the DM wrote:
There are additional UMD modifications/customizations. I don't recall if assassin counts at full value or not.
Being that UMD is a class skill for assassins, I'd certainly hope so.

Additionally, Bards should get full value as well; it's a class skill for them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Mon Jul 19 2010, 22:54

Regarding UMD:

I think it must be pretty imaginatively altered. The rogue/assassin I described above has 40 ranks in UMD at level 37. 36 levels are either rogue or assassin, so that makes UMD a class skill for 36/37 levels which is over 97% and he still can't equip a dagger rated 3 levels over his level. (But then I suspect that in this case equipping the dagger is unrelated to UMD because both systems have been re-written) I personally don't have a problem with that, but I wish I had spent the skill points on Craft Weapon as it was a pretty big waste of 40 skill points, lol.

Regarding Weapon Crafting - Levels and Equipping:

If I understand what was said above, an ON HIT (9) made by a level 40 player is NO DIFFERENT in damage than an ON HIT (9) made by a level 21 player other than the level restriction for equipping. Is that correct?

Regarding Weapon Crafting in general:

Because so much of the success in this module relies on using crafted weapons to get the addition damage boost required to knock over the monsters as they are scaled, and because the gems to craft the weapons are so rare and so much trouble to acquire, it only makes sense that you would use a crafter to get the best and most efficient effect. Especially with a dual-wield build which requires twice the number of gems to adaquately equip the build. Many builds that I have developed over the years can be very skill point stingy and do not allow for diverting them into craft weapon either.

I was trying to make a new dagger for that same rogue last night and failed 3 times in a row. I have no way to replace those lost gems other than to start another toon to run through the lower bosses, or wait for extremely rare random drops, or maybe beg for gems from other players (I will quit the server first). I was also told that you can do something with emeralds, but I think those come from the same sources. I sure would like to see a reliable and predictable source of gems even if they require work to get.

So adding a low crafting score (0) to a dual wield build, and multiclass penalties necessitates a crafter, which is probably why I don't see a great variety of builds on this server. Looks like every one plays the same 3 or 4 builds.

General remarks:
All that being said, I fully applaud the huge efforts put forth in building a pretty nice world and my hats off to the depth of the coding changes in the module that were required for this level of improvement. I like the level of control over the module software that is apparent.

But I guess I will make a level 39 crafter to cover everything between level 20 and 39 that can handle all weapon types just to get around the rule although I don't like having to do it. I recognize that it is Sarah's World and I am just visiting, but are you sure there's no way to at least get the equipping level to show up on the EB+n weapons? Smile



Back to top Go down
View user profile
Nuli



Posts : 98
Join date : 2008-09-10
Age : 42
Location : Pittsburgh, Pa

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Mon Jul 19 2010, 23:33

Caudata wrote:
Regarding UMD:

I have no way to replace those lost gems other than to start another toon to run through the lower bosses, or wait for extremely rare random drops, or maybe beg for gems from other players (I will quit the server first).


You could always relevel the character via Celesti and put points in craft weapon. I know you said that you dont always have points for craft weapon but that is more a character decision then anything. Regardless of build, I always give my characters at least a 14 Int in order to get a decent amount of skill points. If you are playing a rogue this would equate to 10 skill points/level (11 if you are human) which is definitely sufficient for any build I can think of.

Knowing that craft weapon is important in the game should tell you to put points into it for best effect. I usually dont even craft a weapon until Im around level 16 as the flame oil does fine through d3.

Just my thoughts.

Nuli
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Mon Jul 19 2010, 23:41

Nuli is wise. If you have 17 strength, what's the cost to raise it one more point to 18? Isn't it something like 3 ability points at the start to do that? Why not simply take one less point of strength (or whatever) and put several points on intelligence? It takes 2 points of strength to raise the strength modifier by +1. You could make a pure fighter with extremely high strength and crappy intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, but why bother sacrificing those other abilities for a couple extra points on AB? The few extra points of strength isn't THAT important to the fighter, but no (or few) skill points or a crappy will save is.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Mon Jul 19 2010, 23:44

"An ON HIT (9) made by a level 40 player is NO DIFFERENT in damage than an ON HIT (9) made by a level 21 player other than the level restriction for equipping. Is that correct?"

Yes, except that a level 40 player would probably make a higher on hit weapon than a level 21 player. There's more involved than simple class level, so it's possible a level 21 could make the same weapon as a level 40 player, but it's unlikely.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Caudata



Posts : 13
Join date : 2010-06-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Tue Jul 20 2010, 00:53

Re: Releveling:

Just checked the cost to relevel that rogue and it's around 750Kgp. While I could (and arguably should) probably do that to the rogue and probably all of my toons to date, it would deplete the total available gold I have over the 6-8 toons I have by almost half. But that's a different problem for a different discussion line. You can't make good money (or so I have heard) until you are over level 40 or even higher. I spend most of my available funds on pots and have only one toon over level 40 but not by much. I actually store a lot of trivial stuff because the merchants pay out rate is horrible so that the next toon I make doesn't have to pay for early level stuff, lol.

Re : The original question about the details of weapon crafting

"Yes, except that a level 40 player would probably make a higher on hit weapon than a level 21 player. There's more involved than simple class level, so it's possible a level 21 could make the same weapon as a level 40 player, but it's unlikely."

I had assumed that there would be some level limitting feature of the anvil to keep a player from over leveling (ON HIT(n)) the crafted weapon and that if a higher crafter toon over leveled it, it would be unuseable by the lower toon, but now I am not so sure.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rom



Posts : 48
Join date : 2009-04-30

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Tue Jul 20 2010, 15:34

If you have other gems that you are willing to part with, you can trade these for what you want with the halfling behind Golden Griffin Inn.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   Tue Jul 20 2010, 22:47

Aldo only trades a gem for a sapphire. There's a new trader deeper in the dungeons who will trade any gem, one for one.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Weapon Anvil operating instructions   

Back to top Go down
 
Weapon Anvil operating instructions
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Fuuinjutsu and Weapon sealing
» Alleria weapon and armor
» want a weapon or person drawn. well ask me here.
» Wind Weapon
» Destroy Abandon Weapon Storage

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Knights Templar NWN :: Ask the DM (Questions and Bug Reports) :: Items-
Jump to: