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 Prevention of Stacking AoEs

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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 13:12

I think they shouldn't be stackable, but perhaps:

Instead of making the AoE just not appear, remove the old one and place the new one?
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 15:39

Players can't stack AoEs. If you're talking about monsters staking AoEs, yes it is depressing and impossible to fight them in these AoEs as they wont move away, nor you can pull/lure them out. That's why first priority is to kill casters in the group. Even if monsters couldn't stack AoEs they would still try casting them in the same spot because that's where you are standing.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 16:07

I know they can't. I just said that I agreed with the limitation.

There was never a question as to how it works or why it works that way, so there's no need to tell me how it works. I was just suggesting that the spell remove the old AOE in that spot and place the new at the target location for PCs.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 19:33

Abriymoch wrote:
I know they can't. I just said that I agreed with the limitation.

There was never a question as to how it works or why it works that way, so there's no need to tell me how it works. I was just suggesting that the spell remove the old AOE in that spot and place the new at the target location for PCs.

the reason for that would be???
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 20:57

1) You wouldn't *waste* the spell slot.
2) Blade barriers last an EXTREMELY loing time, but start doing 0 damage after 5 strike or so and then you can't cast anymore on the creature because there is already one there, and it claims you're trying to "stack" blade barriers, even though one is effectively dead.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 21:29

The script finds if there's an AoE from the same caster in the same general area. It doesn't go through each AoE to try and determine if it's the same as the spell that is being cast. That would require quite a bit more work. I actually looked at that at one time and settled for any AoE by the same caster in the immediate area.

Blade barrier works differently on monsters than PCs, because the monster AI isn't good enough to figure out how to avoid AoEs. Players, on the other hand, can step outside the areas if they wish. If anything, I need to make the other AoE spells work the same as BB so that monsters get a better saving throw the longer they are in the area.

I agree BB effectiveness falls off pretty quickly. I can take another look at that and see if I can extend the effectiveness.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 21:50

I know that right now they won't stack for *any* AoE but having having the script remove the existing AoE and replace it with the one being cast would be extremely helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 22:17

I agree, It might be helpful, but what you're asking is for it to work on all AoE not just BB. Doing so would pretty much ruin other AoE spells, unless of course PCs could still cast AoE in the area you can do it now.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Thu Feb 25 2010, 22:25

Only an idiot would willingly dispell their party's AoEs "just because". If someone else's AoE is more useful, let them cast them. Otherwise,t he player will learn fast that such an action is NOT appreciated.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Fri Feb 26 2010, 12:49

I don't think you understand my point. When I originally tried to solve the AoE exploit, I found out that an AoE doesn't really know what it is. It can run a script when someone enters or leaves the AoE or when someone is standing in the AoE (with a heartbeat script, every 6 seconds). A Blade Barrier AoE records who cast it, but there's no function for determining, externally, that it's a BB AoE. So, I can scan through a given area for AoEs and determine who cast them, but I can't determine one AoE spell from another. There are always ways to solve these sorts of issues. For example, I could store the SpellID on the AoE whenever someone casts it, but to tell you the truth, I'm pretty satisfied with the AoE setup as it stands.

Oh, here's why I consider player cast AoE's an exploit. First, you used to be able to cast one BB right on top of another. Clerics would simply stack however many BBs they wanted in a given area, then run monsters across them until the monsters died. It was no challenge at all (that's a clue that something ain't right). I don't believe any AoE should be stacked. If a storm of vengeance is running in an area, it doesn't make sense that another storm could run in the same place.

Secondly, the monster AI doesn't handle an AoE properly, and it would probably add a lot of coding to the game to fix it. I'm not keen to bog down the server as each monster contemplates how to handle an AoE. Even unintelligent creatures avoid pain, and crossing a BB would definitely send any pain-feeling creature running. There might be exceptions for creatures who don't feel pain, like constructs, but that misses the main point: intelligent creatures would not stand in an AoE taking damage, they would avoid them.

That's why the KT system prohibits AoE stacking. I agree it would be better if a BB could occupy the same space as a storm of vengeance, but like I wrote, that's a lot of extra work for something that doesn't really hinder playability much at this point. I also plan to change ALL AoEs so that monsters take less damage over time, as that's a reasonable workaround for the inadequate monster AI scripts. However, I'm also extending the number of rounds that an AoE will do damage to the same creature, so that AoEs aren't completely nerfed. The modified BB, for example, will damage a given creature for more rounds before the effectiveness drops off.

I hope this explains my thoughts on AoEs.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Fri Feb 26 2010, 20:20

Aye it does. I can understand the work involved in adding the SpellIds to every AOE for checking. Thanks.

But still... I'm not asking to allow stacking... at all in ANY form. You can already check to see if there is an AoE present. If so, just remove it, and let the new spell being cast be laid down.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 00:03

What do other players think of that idea? It can be done easily enough, but I'm not sure I'd want an AoE canceled by the next.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 01:53

Well, you've said it yourself you plan on making the AoEs diminish over time as monsters are inside of it, so since many last 60+ rounds, and they'll become ineffective before then, it would only make sense to be able to replace it.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 02:38

well, go ahead and do that, but if that replacing of AoE starts to get on my bad side i will ask to change it back... The reason he is asking for you to do that is so he can spam BB on monsters... you know 900dmg with each spell is pretty much strongest Cleric spell. IF not him, someone else will abuse it.
Making Changes like that you have to always consider other things it affects(other AoE spells in this case).
Abriymoch, you probably know this and that's why you're asking for it but, Evasion nor Improved Evasion works on BB. I asked Sarah quite a while ago, when i noticed this to fix it. So Sarah if go ahead and change that, but make evasion and imp evasion work with BB together with this change:)

EDIT:
When i asked to weaken AoE in my other Post pretty much would be solved with your idea Sarah. That 20% won't change much in a short run, but it would make a huge difference in a longer time but, I think your idea with diminishing damage over time will do the same, would probably reduce the damage even more.
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Sarah the DM



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 09:33

He could try to spam BB, but it won't help. Those monsters that survive it will likely be immune to any further BB spells, no matter how powerful.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 16:09

GPharaoh that was extraordinarily rude of you to accuse me of wanting to abuse that...

The reason for me to suggest this idea came from playing in D16. Too many monsters I found were immune to BB damage type (slashing). And, after having cast it to find they were COMPLETELY immune, I couldn't cast any other AoE on top of it to *maybe* do some damage.

And just for your information, I only keep a maximum of four Blade Barriers memorized. Hardly enough to "spam" BBs. Those of us who are creative and build our characters well have no need for such lame tactics.

Personally, I think Cloudkill and Acid Fog should be nerfed severely. That's all you do in D16 is lay a bunch of those two AoEs and the monsters are dead before they reach you.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 16:33

THERE WAS a reason why I asked you the reason you asked for it
Quote :
1) You wouldn't *waste* the spell slot.
2) Blade barriers last an EXTREMELY loing time, but start doing 0 damage after 5 strike or so and then you can't cast anymore on the creature because there is already one there, and it claims you're trying to "stack" blade barriers, even though one is effectively dead.
that was your answer... where does it lead to?? abusing BB because it doesn't do enough damage.
I said as well if not you someone else would abuse it. Now if you were as creative as you've said you would know monsters in hell are immune to physical if you did go there with your melee character;)
I asked to nerf AoE as well, but you sir are too dumb and had to said why i wanted it nerfed... now everyone will do what I do. First of all one wiz/sorc alone isn't enough to do that... well it is but it eats like 8 AoE spells... so SHHH ok??
Now just because I came up with that idea and the ones i invited to my party to go to hell already use it. I could have not let anyone see it, and not ask to nerf AoE. Anyways this can be done with all AoE's and its nothing like exploiting or spamming
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 19:19

What I suggested does NOT lead to where you thought it did. And calling names is extremely childish, so please, grow up.

The reason for my suggestion was to stop the spell becoming worthless. It did ONE set of damage over 400, then ONE over 150, then everything else was below 75. After that it did successive 0's every round for over 60 rounds, and I couldn't replace it to make it worthwhile again.


I have divine based spells that do over 400 damage, so BB is hardly my only useful spell.

And in case you hadn't noticed, I don't have a melee character.

And, since you missed it as we were fighting him, Harm did over 1200 damage on the Vile King the first time I cast it on him. Given he's 90% immune to everything, its usefulness drops severely as his HP does.

Put frankly, I can see why you were banned previously. Why you were re-instated is astounding.
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GPharaoh

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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sat Feb 27 2010, 19:53

Harm did 120 damage not 1.2k my friend. Never called names. I can very well track combat log and see what does how much damage, its harder if i am looking on few things on the same line.
None your spells do 400 divine damage on failed save... I am not sure on this one because I don't make pure cleric casters. I love clerics but i make battleclerics ONLY.
Don't go about my banning because you don't know what i was banned for. The only fair ban i got was the last one for what i've said to gramma. The first ones shouldn't have taken place but that's what happens when trustworthy players report you on something you haven't done because you continously PK them.

Now if you really wanted to make BB more effective you would have asked to extend the damage of BB because the damage dies too fast. Asking for it to be replacable is like asking to allow you to spam AoE on the targets because you can't cast another BB few feets away and move monsters onto it. The only monsters that wouldn't move are Casters like Blue Imp or High Drow Priestess. It can still be done with casters but its too much work (some skills/classes can easily pull casters.)

PS: I don't jump to conclusions. I draw them from what you have said yourself. But I guess your reasons change very often ;/
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 02:02

GPharaoh wrote:

None your spells do 400 divine damage on failed save... I am not sure on this one because I don't make pure cleric casters. I love clerics but i make battleclerics ONLY.
If you don't know then don't even bother to make a reply on it. And, just so you don't embarrass yourself once more, Sunbeam can do 450-500 damage to a monster when it fails the save.

GPharaoh wrote:

Don't go about my banning because you don't know what i was banned for. The only fair ban i got was the last one for what i've said to gramma. The first ones shouldn't have taken place but that's what happens when trustworthy players report you on something you haven't done because you continously PK them.

You were banned more than once? That only proves my point more.

GPharaoh wrote:
...you sir are too dumb...

Whatever. Argue this one yourself. Trying to make a point to someone who speaks without thinking is like trying to tell a dead dog to fetch.


Last edited by Abriymoch on Sun Feb 28 2010, 16:05; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 02:42

Abriymoch wrote:
GPharaoh wrote:

None your spells do 400 divine damage on failed save... I am not sure on this one because I don't make pure cleric casters. I love clerics but i make battleclerics ONLY.
If you don't know then don't even bother to make a reply on it. And, just so you don't embarrass yourself once more, Sunburst can do 450-500 damage to a monster when it fails the save.

GPharaoh wrote:

Don't go about my banning because you don't know what i was banned for. The only fair ban i got was the last one for what i've said to gramma. The first ones shouldn't have taken place but that's what happens when trustworthy players report you on something you haven't done because you continously PK them.

You were banned more than once? That only proves my point more.

GPharaoh wrote:
...you sir are too dumb...

Whatever. Argue this one yourself. Trying to make a point to someone who speaks without thinking is like trying to tell a dead dog to fetch.

Quote :
I have divine based spells that do over 400 damage, so BB is hardly my only useful spell.
SO... you don't even know what you have typed i guess.... that would explain why you were giving different reasons to why AoE spells should be changed LOL
Quote :
Description: A brilliant explosion occurs where the caster directs causing 1d6 points of magical damage per caster level (to a maximum of 25d6) to all undead. Non-undead creatures suffer only 6d6 damage. Vampires are destroyed instantly if they fail a reflex saving throw. All enemies in the area of effect must also make a successful reflex saving throw or be blinded permanently (the blindness can only be magically removed).
quoted from nwnwiki
Now explain to me where exactly it does more than 400 DIVINE Damage?? Either you are too dumb or i don't comprehend

I will stop at this as further discussion with you child is pointless.

Sarah, He started calling names. Calling him "creative" is not an insult especially when he called himself like that.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 15:01

You don't even realize 99.999% of spells on the server were changed.


Sarah, please step in.
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 16:30

That's why These sPells do so much damage because they've been modified. Sunburst does up to 800 Magic Damage on failed Save to Undead. I know that Because I use that spell instead of Undeath to death .

I don't like Undeath to death anymore because once creature successfully saves vs the spell, its no longer affected by that spell. I wish Sarah fixed that but ah well. This is the only Necromancy school spell affecting Undead i used to use because my wiz specializes in necromancy spells, but it's been changed.(caster without focusing in spell focus: Necromancy had not high DC enough to kill undeads, even mine couldn't kill evil dead with it, very low chance... its been good only on insane zombies and i used to farm that place for fast EXP) It uses will save unlike Sunburst that uses Reflex save and all undead have really weak reflex saves.

I think the spell you were talking about was SunBeam. This one does divine damage, but its not much anyways. Nothing in 400's anyways.
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Abriymoch



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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 16:57

Just tried to help someone kill Nosferatu.. It was doing 375 to him, and over 600 to Vampire Queens.
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PostSubject: Re: Prevention of Stacking AoEs   Sun Feb 28 2010, 17:13

It might as it was modified most likely, but i Don't know because my cleric doesn't use offensive cleric spells as i know he wouldn't have high enough DC
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