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El Gabardine



Posts : 57
Join date : 2009-01-10

PostSubject: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 00:22

Has anyone else noticed that the feat "self-concealment" doesn't stack with anything ? it is offered as an epic feat for monks , and doesn't stack with the monk feat " empty-body",or improved invisiblity. Also noticed that empty-body, that is suppose to offer 50% concealment , only offers 43% concealment . Ghostly visage,ethereal visage,imp. invisiblity,self concealment , nor empty-body stack . This I expected except for self-concealment . Why offer a feat , an epic feat , to a class that has a granted feat that it isn't compatible with ? If self-concealment doesn't stack with empty-body , why is it even offered ? they are different feats achieved through different avenues. As dodge bonuses stack from different sources, shouldn't atleast these 2 conceals stack ? This would follow the pattern of improved ki-strike (stack), improved stunning-fist (stack), improved spell-resist (stack),all of them epic monk feats .
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Abriymoch



Posts : 157
Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 01:50

NO concealment effects stack. Ever. On Any Server. They are offered because not every server out there has Improved Invisibility available to EVERY CLASS. Don't assume it's for this server only. Also, monk Empty Body scales with level on KT from what I've seen, same with improved invisibility concealment.

Also, it's not just monks who take self concealment. I've made some very deadly assassins with SC V.

Also, Sarah can't change it feat wise... He'd have to edit the spells scripts to count the # of SC feats the player possessed, and add to that. (thus Improved Invisibility of Empty Body would be granting 100% concealment to players with SC V. Making monsters miss them 100% of the time. The fact that concealments don't stack is for the most part an engine limitation, but it is possible to overcome.
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El Gabardine



Posts : 57
Join date : 2009-01-10

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 08:41

thank you very much. Still learning Very Happy
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Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 10:42

Yeah, concealment is a tricky issue that I dabbled with for some time. I lost my original notes, but I did some extensive testing early on. As a recall, there's a base chance to hit a concealed player that is modified by the attacker's level (I think) and strength. No other bonuses to hit, as I recall, had any effect. A +20 sword didn't help any more than a non-magical sword. Only the strength bonus modified the attack chance.

60 is now the highest strength on the server, monsters included, so this drives the maximum concealment percent on KT. All concealment/displacement effects call the same custom KT function that calculates the conceal percentage based on player level, to include a bonus for the legendary (beyond 60) levels.
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Warchief

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Posts : 102
Join date : 2009-02-09

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 15:02

The Self Concealment feat is actually a very handy feat since it grants you permantent concealment. Even if you run over one of those tiles that despell invis/concealment buffs your Self Concealment feat is still active. That means that no matter what with Self Concealment 5 you will also be 50% concealed.
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Abriymoch



Posts : 157
Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 20:25

Concealment is strictly % to hit (or miss, depending on which way you look at it) the target.

If a player has 50% concealment, with 20 AC, a monster will ALWAYS miss 50% of it's attacks, even if they beat the player's AC.

100% concealment (or any concealment, if they fall under the % roll) even negates 20s.

The only reason it may have anything to do with strength, is the monster's/player's strength was their modifier for their AB (as compared to dex or wisdom). Other than that, it's strictly random.
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Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Fri Dec 04 2009, 22:59

Sorry, I can't agree with you that it's completely random. It's definitely affected by the strength modifier. Like I wrote, it's been some time since I tested it, but I do remember testing it extensively with identical monsters in all but strength. In other words, take a goblin of a particular level and give it 10, 20, 30...100 strength and you'll see that the chance to hit the concealed target improves with the higher strength.

I noticed this originally because the standard 50% concealment was worthless for really high strength monsters. AB, of course, improves with the monster level, but I used test monsters with the same level, only different strengths. This was not a better chance to hit, which also changed with higher strength. This was a better chance to get past the concealment.

I'm not sure about the effect of monster level on it, but as I recall, monster hit dice also impacted the concealment roll. I could create high hit dice monsters with high strength that would never miss a 50% concealed target.
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Abriymoch



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Join date : 2009-02-15

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Sat Dec 05 2009, 00:44

Quote :
Concealment is a chance that your opponent will miss you when he would normally hit otherwise. For example, someone with 50% concealment (from something such as improved invisibility) will be missed half the time (when they normally would be hit).

Concealment can be partially negated by the blind fighting feat, which lets you re-roll for a second chance when failing a concealment check. For example, if your first roll results in a miss due to concealment, you can roll again. So a 50% concealment would effectively become 25% against an opponent with blind fighting.

An epic character may take the self concealment feat to achieve a permanent 10% concealment bonus. This feat can be retaken up to five times for 50% permanent concealment.

Other than multiple self concealment feats, concealment does not stack. Only the highest concealment is used. The maximum concealment that a player character can have is 50%.

See invisibility and true seeing do not penetrate concealment.
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Sarah the DM



Posts : 695
Join date : 2008-09-04

PostSubject: Re: concealment   Sun Dec 06 2009, 02:01

After further testing, I'm proven wrong. Monster hit dice and strength did modify the attack roll, but it appeared to have no effect on the chance to overcome concealment. I don't know why, but when a monster rolls to hit a concealed target, it shows an attack roll to the right. However, rolls greater than the concealment chance did not necessarily result in a *hit* response. I'm capping the maximum concealment on the server at 50%. It will start lower than that and increase with player level.

My apologies.
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